File talk:Flag of Romania.svg

Blue

Change the blue color is not the coulur from Romanian Flag.

What color am I supposed to use? Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 11:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Replace

I propose to replace this image according to the information found here. That page provides a SVG file which is licensed under CC ShareAlike. In its favor, it is even linked from FOTW. The reason for the replacement is that the current file uses the wrong colors. If you follow the research on the page I indicated, you'll see that at the origin of both flag pictures there was a series of Pantone colors: 280c, 116c, 186c. However, the way to transform these to digital colorspace differs. Zscout370, who created the file, attempted direct transformation of Pantone codes to RGB using an online transformation chart. This is wrong. Pantone-to-digital conversion can NOT be done directly and is not a trivial matter, since it requires laboratory conditions. Any such chart found on the Web is quite likely flawed. On the other hand, the author of the second file used as reference CMYK color codes from a very respected vexillological reference book (Album des Pavillons). --Wirespot 19:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That page admits that he has no official source on the colors. ¦ Reisio 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, I see two quite important sources. The Romanian Law which mentions pigments is one, but they cannot be easily be translated to digital. And Album de Pavillons seems to be held in high esteem by the vexillology community. Is it worth nothing? --Wirespot 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If the law specifies Pantone colors, then they're probably already being used. Album de Pavillons is nice, but an official state law rather trumps it. ¦ Reisio 02:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly it, that the law doesn't state Pantone codes. It states pigments, so there's really no way to derive digital codes from the law. Album de Pavillons, however, does list digital codes, and it's pretty much the only reliable source for this. Now, I fail to see why someone would take the book at value for the Pantone codes but not for the CMYK codes. Either one accepts both or none. --Wirespot 08:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zscout370 didn't choose the current colors. ¦ Reisio 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. --Wirespot 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity, where DO the current colors come from? Who came up with them and from where? --Wirespot 08:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, I figured it out. He took the Pantone codes from Album des Pavillons and converted them to RGB using the Commons Pantone chart. Because, of course, if the Album gives you a choice between print colors and digital colors, you should pick the print colors and transform them to digital using doubtful means, instead of taking the digital codes. Sarcasm aside, how does this method make any sense? --Wirespot 09:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The current colors should be fairly accurate. While you can't really use an exact Pantone color for the web, there are equivalents, even some released by the PMS folks themselves. ¦ Reisio 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Fairly accurate" according to what source? The above are the only 2 accurate sources I could find. If you mean to take the pigments as a source then I'd like to see some serious proof of conversion to digital, although I doubt very much it can be achieved -- I can't quite see how one can choose from the vast amount of materials that the pigments can be applied to and say "this is it, let's go with this color we got here." And if one chooses Pantone colors then it means they got them from Album des Pavillons since it's the only place that lists them; and then why not also trust that book and accept the CMYK codes? Why disregard it and go to all kinds of charts for Pantone conversion? I've taken a look at many such charts, including the one used by the Commons. I can assure you that the colors found there are definitely not what you can see in any Romanian flag, look for some photos on the web yourself. The yellow proposed by the charts is too dark and washed out when it should be brighter. The red comes out too purple. The blue is a matter of debate since it varies even in actual flags. So much for the charts' credibility. --Wirespot 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What'shisname cited his source on the page. The charts most likely originate from Pantone's own equivalents. Be sure you check the existing colors on a few different monitors before you decide how they look. I have looked some on the web at photographs, and I don't see an issue, so I think it's on you to point it out to us. More debate on the Pantone equivalents issue can be found at Image talk:Flag of Italy.svg. ¦ Reisio 02:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For fun I did a google image search on "romania flag" ... you get a pretty wide range of colors. I have to say though, when comparing with photos of an actual flag like [1] [2] or [3], the colors on this svg look a little dark, especially the blue. I tried with a couple different browsers on both Windows and Mac, and while not identical they all looked darker than the real thing (as it appears in those photos). Carl Lindberg 04:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many charts all over the web show quite different colors from one another. I did, ofc, check the colors on various monitors and settings. The current image is too dark, it looks like a flag kept in the shade. The Pantone-to-RGB transformations offered by the Commons chart produce a dark blue, a dark, pale yellow and a sort of magenta red. If you'll look at Web photos, please look at those showing a new flag, in good lighting, not an old faded flag in the shade. The flag should be a bright, deep blue, a golden yellow and a bright red. --Wirespot 08:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any advancement on the issue? The image is too dark. Lighter, more appropriate, colors can be obtained using the CMYK codes from FOTW instead of Pantone. --Wirespot 10:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since I'm obviously not very invested in this matter, I'd prefer if some other people chimed in - particularly since I know Commons:WikiProject Flags generally prefers Pantone approximations over anything else if the law uses Pantone to specify the colors. Photographs are nice, but the law is the law; and if there's one thing you learn while investigating flags, it's that often even government organizations fail at accurately constructing flags according to their own laws (if they've even gone to the trouble to explicitly outline the construction at all). That said, if nobody else responds, I don't see any great problem with proceeding and altering the file - just don't freak out should someone eventually oppose you (it very well may be me later on). ¦ Reisio 12:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I expected some debate, that's why I chose to discuss instead of simply replace. That being said, these are the facts: (1) there is a Romanian law on the subject, but it uses pigments, not Pantone codes, not any other standard codes. I deem that as unusable for digital representation. (2) There is only one other somewhat reliable source for colors codes: the "Album des Pavillons" book, quoted by FOTW. I've learned that the author produced Pantone and CMYK codes by matching them (visually, as is normal) against new flags in natural sunlight. (3) Therefore we have some Pantone and some CMYK codes. Neither are official. Neither are, frankly, particularly suited for digital. But we need some approximation for digital. And I object to Pantone on two grounds. First, the result is too dark, as anybody who's seen a new Romanian flag in natural sunlight will agree. Second, using Pantone introduces yet a second level of approximation to an already subjective situation. --Wirespot 12:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If they were matched by eye, then I agree the CMYK's are surely more accurate...unless of course the Pantones were a perfect match, which would seem unlikely. So go ahead and usem, I guess. :) Just be careful, not all CMYK color code generators are good/stable/forthright. ¦ Reisio 17:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry, I double-checked using the CMYK-CMY-RGB conversion formula. --Wirespot 20:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I emailed the Romanian Embassy in the United States, specifically asking for Pantone colors or CMYK. All I got was the colors were cobalt, the yellow-chrome and the red-vermillion. No Pantone matches. FOTW is debating this very, very same issue now (in a bit of irony, they also said our colors are way too dark). The user who came behind me and changed the colors, Bogdan, is a Romanian user and I trust his judgement. However, basing from my experience from the Italian flag issue, I have no accurate source saying what color shades are correct other than the three I gave above. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 18:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, since the moneygrubbers at Pantone didn't want us using their colours for free, we don't have a house standard for Pantone colours anymore. -- Denelson83 14:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can still pick up a copy from the Google cache, at least for a while. Search for "commons pantone chart", it's the first result. --Wirespot 15:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have Photoshop, where you can use Pantone colors in images. Let me know what Pantone colors yall want and I will see what Photoshop spits out. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 01:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wirespot's new version has virtually identical colors to your original version, actually. It appears Bogdan's darker colors came about from using an online Pantone->RGB chart, previously mentioned in the article. Carl Lindberg 02:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That reminds me, the Romania embassy sent me a flag early in 2005 (paper) and from what I see here, the colors match the flag I own. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 06:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Licensing

I propose to tag this image with {{PD-RO-Symbol}}. It would still be public domain, but more in tone with the official stand. --Wirespot 10:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care either way as long as it's 'public domain'. ¦ Reisio 12:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the modification. --Wirespot 12:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Colors, again

The file uploaded by Wirespot a month ago shows the Romanian flag in rather sickly bright colors, especially the blue, but also the red. As I was explaining Zscout370 last year (on his en.wp talk page, archive 4) the flags you see in history museums in Romania have rich deep colors. I believe that the Album des Pavillons is the only precise source we have about these colors, other than the rather vague Romanian law, and the only problem is converting them reliably into RGB. As everyone knows, such a conversion is not straightforward, and one has to rely on visually comparing colors, just as the Pantone colors were chosen in the first place.

After trying several conversion tables and programs, I came to think that the best conversion is done by CorelDraw and used it to make the file I've just uploaded.

In support of my choice are a few other websites, among which Vexilla Mundi. They seem to apply the same formula as CorelDraw and give the same RGB values. Very similar colors are used by Johnny Andersson's World Flags Collection and by flag suppliers such as USFlag.com. AdiJapan 06:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to email the Romanian Gov't again but I still have not gotten a response to our satisfaction. My personal opinion is to avoid using the colors from Vexilla Mundi, since I have seen inaccuracies before on several flags, and there is no source to the information he provides (unless he uses nothing but what is given in A2K). I also spoken to Romanian users too, and what really needs to be done is for those Romanian users to ask the gov't what is going on, since there is probably things that are available offline to them and not available to outsiders like me. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 06:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid the Romanian Government won't take the responsability to give more information than what is available in the law. I am one of "those Romanian users" (although not currently in Romania) and I think we are all outsiders, including the government. But from my own experience I can tell that the darker flag is closer to the real thing. --AdiJapan 08:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant by the outsiders comment is that I am an American citizen, so whatever information they could provide to a Romanian, they probably won't give to someone like me. However, I can tell you this; I did get a light blue shade flag from the Romanian embassy before. The red and yellow looked fine, but the blue appears light. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 13:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an issue of keeping "outsiders" in the dark. The .ro government will simply not bother to appoint a team to produce digital colors and have them made into law. They are most always engaged in political battles advancing party interests and have little interest for something like this. That being said, I wish we'd settle to a sane policy for the colors once and for all. The Romanian law is unusable, since it talks of pigments. Album des Pavillons offered CMYK codes produced with a professional technique, but some people choose to disregard them because they don't "feel" right. And then we have people who pop up periodically and change the colors to whatever they think they should be, based on "gut feeling", or colors they've seen in pictures or elsewhere. I've argued several times that of these three cases, Album des Pavillons makes for the only logical choice. It may not be perfect, but it's the only one backed by something palpable. And yet it seems that the 3rd method (gut feeling de jour of various individuals) is still preferred. Why, I cannot fathom. I can produce pictures showing all kinds of shades and I can walk down the street and see many shades as well. It amazes me that we should allow such circumstantial evidence to flip and flop this image periodically. Wirespot 01:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we had the official hard colors to choose from, people won't go with those. The Polish and Italian flags are perfect examples (I lost my head in the later case). Just like the white was killing me in the Italian flag, the blue seems to be the culprit this time with the Romanian flag. If you think it will settle the issue to use the Album 2000 (short name for the French book) colors, then that will be fine with me. (The reason I stated the outsider issue is that I was not given flag information before due to my status as an American citizen). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 02:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try, but as you said, I'm growing weary. At some point I probably won't bother anymore. Frankly, it's nobody's fault. As long as the Romanian government can't be bothered to publish official digital codes, anybody can come along and change all three colors, not just the blue, to whatever they please. Who can honestly say they got the wrong shade? Wirespot 19:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eventually I came to the conclusion that the only verifiable data we have is Album des Pavillions plus some conversion tables from CMYK to RGB, all giving more or less the same results. For example http://web.forret.com/tools/color.asp leads to the same results as those initially set by Wirespot and those in en:Flag of Romania. Personally I still think these colors are way too bright, but what I feel is not verifiable. I remade the SVG and replaced my own older darker version. AdiJapan 17:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That looks similar to the flag I got from the Romanian embassy in 2004. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 22:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good. It means my disliking this shade of blue is just my very own personal problem. However, I would suggest that those interested in the issue look at these photographs of Romanian flags used in official circumstances and see what those colors should look like. Especially the first picture shows that the blue should be about as dark as that on the EU flag.

I didn't select the images to fit my view. AdiJapan 09:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then you are not the only one with this problem. Imagine dealing with this issue at other flag images. This is my hell, I walked into it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 01:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please somebody upload the real flag of Romania. Check this links

(Unsigned: 89.42.225.156)

The problem with those links is that they just give various shades of the flag. But I got the general hint that they are of a darker shade. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 22:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see the flag was made darker. To the person who made the new image, what website or other source did you use for the colors? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 23:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They reverted to the previous version. Carl Lindberg 23:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hm..anyways, I decided to upload a version with the dark blue, but the correct yellow and red, since the main problem seems to be the blue. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 02:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This may sound funny, but the new version, with a very dark blue and very bright yellow and red, is even worse (and surely not verifiable). The balance between colors is just as important as the colors themselves. Now the flag looks almost like the flag of Belgium. I would suggest a solution, if others will agree. We could take a collection of photographs of the flag (there are some examples above), pick the colors, and calculate a sort of average. This could be judged as verifiable, since it only uses colors from actual pictures. If there is an agreement on this I offer to do the job. AdiJapan 12:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As long as we can solve this issue, fine. Even if we chose the colors we can verify, like with yours, people are just going to revert because of some issue. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 14:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Colors averaged from photographs

As I was saying above, one practical way to solve the problem is by calculating an average from several photographs. I've just done that, and here's what I did, step by step:

I selected several photographs taken in the most formal circumstances, where we can assume that carefully realized flags were displayed. All three colors had to be clearly visible, none of them was to be saturated. In the end I could find 4 such pictures:
Where necessary, the photos were slightly color-corrected so that objects that were supposed to be gray/white be represented with equal RGB values.
Portions of the photo corresponding to the three flag colors were selected. Poorly illuminated areas and shiny surfaces were avoided.
The average RGB values for each portion were calculated.
The resulting RGB values coresponding to the blue band were averaged across the 4 flags. The same was done for the yellow and red bands.
The result is an "average flag". This was further brightened by proportionally increasing the RGB values until the largest of them reached 100% (that happened to be the R value of the yellow band). Here are the results in hex:
- Blue: #083395
- Yellow: #FFC021
- Red: #C4160F
These final values were written in the SVG file.

Nowhere in the proces did I use any color management technology, as all the calculations were made in RGB. What I did not take into account was the nonlinearity between actual luminance and RGB, but since the values come from already digitized photographs and the result is to be displayed in the same digital conditions, the errors couldn't be significant.

Personally I am pleased with these colors and their balance, although they may seem a bit dark. Let's see what others have to say. AdiJapan 18:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request

I want request upload a new version from File:Flag of Romania Fixed.svg. Thank You. --Tcfc2349 (talk) 12:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done Awesome! Thank you! ~riley (talk) 17:37, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Correct colors

{{edit request}} This version is wrongly shown as being the flag of Romania on the country page in multiple languages. The official flag however is noticeably different as evidenced by the law 75 of 16 iulie 1994 (in Romanian): https://legislatie.just.ro/Public/DetaliiDocument/4303
An ordinary color picker shows the following values:
RGB Blue strip: 29/0/201
RGB Yellow strip: 247/240/0
RGB Red strip: 255/0/0

The flag colors should be edited to reflect the ones in the law passed by the Parliament. Ysmyuaau (talk) 13:00, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done No file provided for us to upload. Please provide a file, then reopen the request. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 02:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The RGB colors specified at the legislatie.just.ro link are the ones in use, I think. They are identical to the ones mentioned in the image description, which is apparently from the Vexilla Mundi website, in turn sourced from a book. They are documented as the colors used in the version uploaded on December 11, 2007, which I think are the colors used ever since (except for a couple days in 2012, which was quickly reverted). Which can also be verified by looking at the SVG source. If not the RGB values in the law link, what should be used? Carl Lindberg (talk) 03:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the precise colour specifications were added to the annex to the law in June 2023 (after the post beginning this section). So the colours from Album des Pavillons, used in this image are no longer just a vexillologist's judgment of the best colours to use for the flag, but are now the legal specficiations. JPD (talk) 04:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]