File talk:LGBT flag map of Algeria.svg

Based on what sources, references and NPOV is this map

Which references, sources, and NPOV do this map come from?
This map should be removed then. Mystrixo ✉️ 07:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you think overlaying the LGBT flag over the silhouette of Algeria is violating the NPOV? -- Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 10:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes,

Also, Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point.

Rather than painting the standard LGBT flag over every map of every country, the Czech Wikipedia might have simply included the standard rectangle LGBT flag. However, it is clear that the purpose of the inclusion of the country's LGBTQ flag was to illustrate a point rather than express an idea. It is not helpful, in my opinion and it's not constructive, not to forget that all other wikis respects the norms. Mystrixo ✉️ 13:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

What's the point being illustrated then? What norms does the file disrespect? -- Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 17:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Fenn-O-maniC While the LGBT+ community is a global movement, placing a rainbow silhouette over every country's map might not be the most balanced approach, according to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.

This policy encourages presenting all significant viewpoints fairly and avoids promoting any particular one.

Perhaps, like the Czech Wikipedia, a simple inclusion of the standard LGBT flag (without the map silhouette) could be considered.

This would represent the movement without appearing to promote it overer the specific context of Algeria.

I understand the desire to represent the LGBT+ community globally. Perhaps we can discuss alternative ways to achieve that while adhering to Wikipedia's policies? Mystrixo ✉️ 23:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what other "viewpoints" need to be considered here. What is the alternative view that makes placing the rainbow flag over simple maps not a neutral one in your opinion? -- Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 11:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I thank you for questioning the point, and I understand your confusion. While the rainbow flag itself represents a community and their identity, placing it over a map of Algeria can be interpreted in a couple of ways:

1. Solidarity: This is likely the intended viewpoint. It signifies support for the LGBTQ+ community in Algeria.
2. Reclamation: The rainbow flag over a map, particularly for a country where LGBTQ+ rights are limited, can be seen as a reclamation of the national space. It challenges the status quo and suggests the LGBTQ+ community is also part of the nation.

However, it's important to consider that not everyone might interpret the image this way. Some might see it as:

• Disrespectful: The national map is a symbol, and some might view placing another symbol over it as disrespectful.
• Imposition: For those who don't identify with the LGBTQ+ community, the image might be seen as imposing a particular viewpoint.

Here are some suggestions for representing the LGBT+ community globally on Wikipedia while adhering to neutrality

• Text descriptions: Use clear and concise language to describe the LGBTQ+ community's presence in a country.
• Statistics: If available, include relevant statistics on population size or legal recognition.
• Cultural references: Discuss LGBTQ+ themes in art, literature, or activism within the country.
• Rainbow Flag with context: If using the flag, ensure proper context explains its purpose (e.g., "The rainbow flag is a symbol of the LGBTQ+ community used here to show solidarity").

I am open to further discussion on the best way to represent the LGBT+ community while adhering to Wikipedia's policies and respecting other's viewpoints. Mystrixo ✉️ 20:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Oppose. Commons is not censored, and legitimately includes content which some users may consider objectionable or offensive. The policy of "Commons is not censored" means that a lawfully-hosted file, which falls within Commons' definitions of scope, will not be deleted solely on the grounds that it may not be "child-friendly" or that it may cause offence to you or others, for moral, personal, religious, social, or other reasons. Bazi (talk) 12:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

You're right; Wikipedia Commons strives to be inclusive and avoid censorship. Thanks for reminding me of that policy. Mystrixo ✉️ 19:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

 Oppose. I am sorry, but there are just arguments that I do not agree with at all. “[...] it is clear that the purpose of the inclusion of the country's LGBTQ flag was to illustrate a point rather than express an idea”. Is it though? What specific point does the image “clearly” illustrate? For me, it clearly expresses a set of simple, related ideas, such as “queer people in Algeria”, “rights of sexual minorities in Algeria”, and so on. In an attempt to express that overarching idea, this file uses what in my opinion is the simplest combination of visual elements available: the rainbow flag, associated with certain sexual groups and related political issues, and a silhouette of the shape of Algeria, denoting the more specific geographical aspect. Trying to combine other visual elements would have yielded a less elegant result, including combining the Algerian and rainbow flags—and I hope that you would agree that that would have been more “disrespectful” (even though I very much would say that offence is taken rather than given in this situation).

On that note, I disagree with maps being “national symbols” per se. A flag for instance was specifically designed to symbolize a particular nation or such. In contrast, a map such as this one simply shows a territory which happens to be administered by a particular polity. There may very well live people inside that territory who do not believe in the polity’s legitimacy, or at the very least feel excluded due to it not having their best interests in mind.

I applaud the Czech Wikipedia for finding such a simple and elegant illustration. —VulpesVulpes42 (talk) 06:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not talking about politics, but rather the uniqueness and practicality of the LGBTQ+ flag on national map silhouettes. The rectangular flag is more extensively used in most events, articles, and Wikis than the Czech Wiki. Mystrixo ✉️ 23:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

In addition, not everyone shares your viewpoint. While you may regard it as the "rights of sexual minorities in Algeria," others may see it as "Algeria supports LGBTQ+," "All of Algeria is LGBTQ+," or "the LGBTQ+ majority in Algeria.", this is why I said it's not a NPOV. Mystrixo ✉️ 15:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the idea alone is not enough to explain everything. For this reason, text is helpful. We should write an article on Wikipedia to further explain the subject. We can applaud Cezch Wikipedia without any issues. The entire article is a copy and paste from the Arabic Wikipedia. Additionally, I have not yet filed a request to have the image removed; my intention was to have an open discussion about it first.Mystrixo ✉️ 15:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)