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Gharyan

From Russia Today: "Libya’s National Transitional Council confirmed that forces loyal to the former regime seized the town of Gharyan 100 kilometers south of the capital, the Itar Tass news agency reported. Gaddafi’s green flags can be seen flying all around Gharyan." http://rt.com/news/line/2011-10-15/#id20263 HeadlessMaster (talk) 12:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like one of the grandest BS I´ve heared throughout this war. Also Id like some direct source on that "NTC sources" confirmation. EllsworthSK (talk) 15:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

And adorable animals continue to lose their innocent lives.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:30, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Whou are you to decide what is BS and what is TRUE? Shame. --213.151.88.252 11:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Someone who has done enough work with the project to know what is reliable and what is merely "true". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, you cleraly demonstrate here that you consider reliable only those things that suit your bias. --Kyknos (talk) 14:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me get u a bucket for ur creys.

Your spinning of sources for Sabha was 100% BS. Sources that mentioned it as a "holdout" after its capture, reported in detail by a journalist for a reliable source, without any other information could reasonably be thrown out. More damning is the fact that no news outlet picked up on any recapture, and that Sirte and BW have been described as the final holdouts bar none.

And I find it especially entertaining that I am first accused of being some pro-Gaddafi censor by a gaggle of IPs who are sad that Twitter ≠ RS just prior to being accused of being an agent of NATO by fringe Gaddafists like you. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

So I am a fringe Gaddafist because I want unbiased reporting? Thank you very much. Few paragraphs above, there is a clear instance of denial until obsolescence, based on western media reliable in your strictest definition. This is against all the good old rules of Wikipedia and unbiased writing. But let it be, I do not care anymore, this is just broken beyond repair. --Kyknos (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

At least we have you to tell us right from wrong. Because till now it worked so well for you. Seriously, we have sources that confirms that Gharyan brigade assaulted just 2 days ago Bani Walid from west and continued their assault till fall of city yesterday yet you claim that Gharyan is under G control based on scroll news that doesnt show up on source anymore? Contugratulations. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Sue me.EllsworthSK (talk) 09:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid to Blue?

Assuming we can trust this source Libyan NTC slows down in Sirte, advances in Bani Walid, Bani Walid should be turned blue.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/16/world/africa/libya-war/index.html This too --188.221.197.246 11:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

AJE says that too http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-oct-16-2011-2058 217.189.195.44 17:24, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Lets wait for confirmation before we´ll change the color. EllsworthSK (talk) 18:51, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

What more confirmation do we need?

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/204942.html FF took the hospital of Beni Walid and are inside some parts of it. the 60% percentage seems exaggerated, if referred to the town itself, maybe the whole residential area. Anyway, it should be made blue. BTW, there are reports of attacks by Ghaddafi's chadian mercenaries in the town of Traghen with 11 people killed and young girls raped. This won't affect the map ,but in case we would like to make a new map with areas under sporadical attacks of disbanded mercenaries (or better say, areas not secured) it could be a clue. What do you think about a new map regarding the areas divided by secured under NTC control, under local FF controls (like Ghadames), not fully secured and for now not FF controlled Beni Walid and parts of Sirte ? 180.183.116.166 19:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, changing it now. EllsworthSK (talk) 21:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

According to this source http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-10/17/c_131194884.htm (which was also posted in the Battle of Bani Walid wiki article), Bani Walid has mostly fallen. If true, Bani Walid can probably be turned red tomorrow.

First of all it was me who added that source into the main article. Second - those are just claims. When some independent verification of that will come out, in other words journalists in Bani Walid will confirm that city is cleared off pro-Gaddafi loyalists, it will turned to red. Not before. EllsworthSK (talk) 00:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, can someone please make a Bani Walid front map, just like toe one for Sirte? 70.187.185.194 02:01, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Although Twitter is not considered a valid sources, we must distinguish amongst its users which varies from international news agencies like BBC, Al Jazeera, Reuters etc (they all have Twitter channels) , independent journalists o spot and unreliable undisclosed users. One of the most reliable contributor so far has been providing reliable maps of Libya, Sirte and now Bani Walid (he has also contributed to Sirte map here in Wikipedia)

http://twitter.com/#!/Karybdamoid/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FsxhckI6n

As you can see by today in early morning, the "core" of Beni Walid is still under loyalists control, while FF has taken most of its surroundings. Beni Walid should be made blue for sure for now, still not red at the moment for sure.

Anyway, I repeat the next project could be a map showing the secured, partially secured and not secured areas distinguishing between NTC and local FF control. The current map will not live long if Beni Walid and Sirte will fall. 180.183.116.166 06:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

The NTC vs. local control will only work if there is an unambiguous distinction. Are the Misratan rebels counted as NTC? If not, Sirte is right now being attacked by both Misratan and NTC, so who will be considered to control it? It can be hard to precisely define who controls what territory as long as the different FF factions aren't shooting each other.

I agree on the issue of this map not being useful that much longer (although I thought that a month ago too, so you never know). On the main 2011 Libyan Civil War page, there is discussion of making an animated to show changes in control through time. This is not a bad idea. Another possibility would be five or so maps: say, one after the initial uprising, one after the G counterattack etc., one a few weeks after NATO started bombing, one right before the Coast offensive, one right after. Rotsapov (talk) 07:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

They are, just as Nafusa mountains militias are counted as such. Not even mentioning that Sirte is under attack from both Misratan militias, which are under command of Misrata military council, which is under command of National Transitional Council, and eastern front which are mainly registered members of NLA, therefore not militias but army made by defected soldiers and conscripts. AS for the gif we mmay make one when the war it´s over. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Our friend Tony from AJE says that Bani Walid has pretty much fallen to NTC. We will wait for other confirmations now, but it will likely soon go to red. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC) - Yes, it seems so. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/17/libyan-rebels-capture-bani-walid

Anyway, let's wait few more hours for things to get "cool", we have seen many times in this war, the pieces of news coming from "hot" fronts are sometimes exaggerated and reverted afterwards. Anyway, it really seems this is the end of the chapter one of the civil war, hopefully almost the end of the whole civil war, although it may looks too optimistic to think everything will be peaceful with most of Ghaddafi's sons, his spokeman and chief of secret service still at large with lots of money and weapons plus internal divisions. When things will become clearer of who is who under this new government, we might think making a new map as I suggested above, now the situation NTC/local FF might be blurred until a formal government is formed.180.183.116.166 14:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

AJE reports "Libyan fighters seize Bani Walid" and has Tony Birtley reporting "from the center of Bani Walid" indicating that while there are still "pockets of resistance" most of the fighters are now moving on to Sirte.[1] It's time. Agricolae (talk) 15:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

AL-ARABIYA: BANI WALID COMPLETELY LIBERATED,ACCORDING TO THE LOCAL NTC-COMMANDER!!! GADDAFI AND HIS SON SEIF-ISLAM NOT IN THE TOWN!!! 79.233.8.46 16:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Just wait few more hours guys ! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/bani-walid-libya-capture_n_1015848.html Now we can read "ALMOST liberated" , let's wait before turning it red, Wikipedia doesn't need to rush to be the real-time last news, it's an encyclopedia, so let's wait those small pockets of resistances will disappear. BTW, BW was supposed to be surrounded by days if not weeks, Saif al Islam was reported and seen inside the town, the rebels are inside the town , where is him now ? Are the Ghaddafis all ghosts ? This is a double war-on the field and on rumors ! 180.183.140.3 17:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I suggest waiting 24 hours before changing anything. If, after 24 hours, no clashes will be reported in Bani Walid we can assume that town has been taken by NTC forces and I´ll change the colour and edit the main article. Just to be sure. EllsworthSK (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I get the whole caution thing, but we have a WP:RS, with a man on the ground. AJE is reporting the fall of Bani Walid. The Guardian is reporting the fall of Bani Walid.[2] Even the HuffPost article characterizes the remaining resistance as "in surrounding villages" and Tony B is characterizing it as nothing but mopping up. I don't see how ignoring this, then after 24 hrs assuming an outcome is the appropriate way to follow policy. Agricolae (talk) 19:16, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Mopping up operations are not enough, all they say is that battle is not over. However Reuters crew confirmed that there are no signs of ongoing battle in the city so I´m changing it. EllsworthSK (talk) 21:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure there is still a bit of resistance. Put a blue ring for a day or two until the result is definitive. 131.251.252.74 22:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Blue ring = held by one side, but under siege. It should not be used for "one side controls more than the other" or to indicate resistance. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Al Jazeera still saying BW was overrun. AFAIK there are now loyalist fighters in the hills, but that's not BW itself. Kwamikagami (talk) 18:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Blue ring works for me if the fighting is in the hills outside the city. The whole "under siege" idea needn't necessarily apply. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

And do we have a source for these fights in the hills? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:54, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes - [3] "they have entered the city center for the first time but still were fighting Gadhafi supporters in surrounding villages." "Residents and fighters said that Gadhafi forces retreated in the face of the advance over the past two days."

Also, where did all fierce Gadaffi loyalists disappear suddenly? Including Seif al-Islam. Is the airport in NTC hands? Because the last news about it was that it's re-taken by Gadaffi loyalists... Maybe they are still there (e.g. outside of the "city center", "important buildings", etc. where NTC flag is flown and where journalists report from). Japinderum (talk) 21:12, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Once again, map deals with city itself. Reuters confirmed on 17th October no fighting in the city, hence colour of the city changes. Same thing happened to Zwara although Jmail and Zlatan were still under pro-G control. I dont really see the point in this discussion, if we´d be dealing with Tripolitanian front map than ok but we´re not. City is in NTC hands, confirmed by several sources, as for some villages outcity city proper, this map is not dealing with them as they are not marked on it. EllsworthSK (talk) 22:36, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

And as for "disappearance" of pro-G soldiers we do not deal with that issue. They may have defected, surrendered or something else. It´s all speculations. EllsworthSK (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

SIRTE-UPDATE!!

http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=7127

THE DOLLAR-SECTION OF SIRTE HAS BEEN SEIZED BY THE REBELS LAST NIGHT! NOW ONLY THE CITY-SECTOR "NUMBER TWO" UNDER GADDAFI-CONTROL! 79.233.29.237 09:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Libyans-fight-against-last-apf-1635138929.html?x=0&.v=3

Only 700 m² in the "Number 2"-district of Sirte remain under Gaddafi-control. End of war expected in the coming 12-24 hours!!!

79.233.29.237 14:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

BREAKING NEWS: GERMAN TV-CHANNEL NTV ON IT`S LIVE-TICKER IN REFERENCE TO THE NTC: "SIRTE LIBERATED THIS EVENING,WHOLE CITY UNDER NTC-CONTROL. CORPSES BEING CHECKED FOR POSSIBLE PROMINENT FIGURES" 79.233.21.151 23:14, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

For the last time, I appreciate updates as any other here but DO NOT post it if you have nothing to back-up your claims. Thanks. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:15, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

And please turn off CAPS LOCK. You sound ridiculous. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:41, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

BBC reports that all of Sirte has been taken. [4] 130.102.158.18 10:22, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

As of 11.30 GMT there is still no Proof that Sirte has completely fallen. The rebels are infamous for there propeganda claims , let's wait and see until we have got video and official evidence that the fighting has stopped in Sirte.

Moving map

I suppose we should modify this map into a moving one, just like the map of the Mongol Empire: File:Mongol Empire map.gif. Waorca (talk) 17:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

No, no, no, no - gif maps are a bad idea. Rafy is already preparing new map with dates and frontlines as in Tripoli battle. So, lets wait, shall we? EllsworthSK (talk) 18:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

this is an svg map, a gif has a different extension and can't be uploaded over it. I think we could best archive this one and create a still image of the change in front lines.--Rafy (talk) 20:53, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

All black now, right? Well, here is my opinion what should be done with this map: its latest version should remain as it is with a description that it shows last stage of the war after the capture of Sirt. As for previous map versions, somebody should select the most important ones of them and then they should be uploaded under separate file names so that we have several maps that showing situations from different stages of the war. I also do not think that an moving gif map is a good solution. PANONIAN (talk) 14:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid Slightly Contested

Bani Walid retaken by pro-Gadhafi militias: [5]. 70.187.185.194 00:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

No loyalists here, sorry. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems that there is some fighting however. There were green Gadhafi-era flags above the city and a day earlier, there were clashes. 70.187.185.194 04:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

There were never any G flags, that was just stuff made up by the NTC militia to scare everybody when they got kicked out. Read the article. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:05, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

So there. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I read the first two articles, or at least I scanned them quickly, but I'm not getting with Lothar got. It looks like militias loyal to what was once the Gadhafi government have in fact seized the town. What am I missing? Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:11, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

They're not loyal to Qaddafi, or claim not to be. They just don't like being administered by the rebel paramilitaries. And frankly, while I'm sympathetic to the rebels, I'll confess that they're poorly organized and haven't always conducted themselves with the greatest restraint or respect for rule of law and human rights. (Though they're saints compared to the dear departed brother leader.) --Quintucket (talk) 12:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Quotes from article 1:

"There were no signs on Tuesday of Gaddafi-era green flags, which witnesses earlier said had been hoisted over the town."

"But elders on Tuesday disputed that account. 'In the Libyan revolution, we have all become brothers. We will not be an obstacle to progress,' said another elder, Miftah Jubarra. 'Regarding allegations of pro-Gaddafi elements in Bani Walid, this is not true. This is the media. You will go around the city and find no green flags or pictures of Gaddafi.'"

"British diplomats characterised the skirmish as a "localised issue" between different factions, rather than a resurgence by pro-Gaddafi forces."

"It's de rigeur at the moment for rival groups to accuse each other of being loyalists. Whenever you have a local dispute one side will accuse the other of being pro-Gaddafi."

Quotes from article 2:

"Libya recognized a tribal-based local government in the former Gaddafi stronghold of Bani Walid on Wednesday, illustrating the power of tribal leaders over the fragile interim government."

"But residents reject accusations from NTC fighters that they remain loyal to Gaddafi."

"Reuters reporters who toured Bani Walid on Tuesday saw no signs of the Gaddafi-era green flags which NTC supporters said had been hoisted over the town following the retreat of the pro-government militia."

"Scanned them quickly" sounds more likely to me.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)