File talk:Prince Bernadotte 1951 Luxembourg decree.svg

Which coronet to use

Oscar's own crown.

The shield is shown here with the Belgian/Dutch ducal crown. It has never been portrayed as such in real life.

When the first Count of Wisborg was created in 1892, the description of his new arms stated that the shield should be crowned with "la couronne ducale telle qu’elle est portée actuellement". The Swedish heraldist Arvid Berghman interpreted this as the refering Swedish princely crown, at the time was almost exlusively called "ducal crown". In the end, Oscar used a whole new crown (pictured) and never used any Swedish or foreign crown on his shield.

The description of the arms of Sigvard, Carl Johan and Lennart is identical to Oscar's. There is no reason to suspect that they were supposed to use the Belgian/Dutch ducal crown and they never did so, using only the comital crown. /Elzo 90 (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

You are confusing the Luxembourg arms with the Swedish arms, I think. Seems to me the Luxembourg arms would have a continental coronet, not Swedish one. I doubt that Berghman designed arms in Luxembourg. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:52, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

In his book Dynastien Bernadottes vapen (1944), Berghman describes two thing. The first is the coat of arms given to Oscar in Luxembourg. He reproduces the description in its original french (p. 117), and interpretes the ducal crown as the same crown Oscar used in Sweden (p. 69). The second is the coat of arms actually used by Oscar and his wife, which is surmonted by a unique crown (p. 69). Oscar was never granted a Swedish arms. /Elzo 90 (talk) 11:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

You keep referring, over and over again, to a Swedish book from 1944 when commenting on arms specified by the head of state of Luxembourg in 1951, 6 years later. Whatever was specified in 1951 is what is legitimate as of 1951 and thereafter. The arms granted Oscar in Sweden, by the head of state of Sweden, are not the same as the arms granted in by Luxembourg. Sweden and Luxembourg are two different countries. Please try to keep that in mind! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

As I have stated, the description given in Luxembourg for the arms granted in 1892 and 1951 are identical. A heraldist, commenting on the first description, stated that the crown refered to was the Swedish ducal crown. Thus, reproducing the shield with the Belgian/Dutch ducal crown has no basis in the literature concerning the arms or in any known depiction of the arms. /Elzo 90 (talk) 13:49, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

First of all, none of these, in English, are called crowns. They are called coronets.

Who designed the coronet in this image you posted here (Wikinym not an acceptable answer)? And what specific heraldic instructions was that design based upon? Quote the official text here, please, if you can. Also please prove, if you can, with some contemporary image from Oscar's lifetime that this was the coronet he used in his arms as Prince Bernadotte.

We know what ducal coronets in BeNeLux have looked like in heraldry, and that ain't this. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:21, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I have already stated my source, and it says that the coronet (thank you for the clarification) shown here is the wrong one. /Elzo 90 (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

New findings

1. Arms with actual coronet

2. This is definitely not the right coronet for these arms.

3. This is not very good either as compared to coronet 4

4. This (but with a dark red cap inside) is more like the coronet found on Prince Carl Bernadotte's official Order of the Seraphim arms, and it matches 5 well.

5. Prince Carl Bernadotte's coronet as used on his stationery is an exact match (without the cap) to the Seraphim arms mentioned under 4.

6. This is a very strange 20th century Swedish coronet specially invented in or shortly before 1944 (9 years before his death at 93) for "Prince Oscar Bernadotte" who was named such in Sweden already in 1888 as only some sort of honorary title that had no rank or other significance there or anywhere else. What coronet was used for his arms as "Prince Bernadotte" from 1888 to 1944 seems to be unknown. It's safe to assume that it was not this one. There is no official source for the specific design here, only descriptions of it.

I have now found this which is the only ducal coronet we know for certain was in use by a "Prince Bernadotte" in 1951 when Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg specified that the coronet above the escutcheon in these arms should be as used "at that time" or "actually" by a Prince Bernadotte (depending on how the word actuellement is translated.

There were only two living Princes Bernadotte in 1951 before Charlotte issued her decree.

1. Oscar Bernadotte: we do not know specifically what his ducal coronet would have looked like in the nobility of Luxembourg. He was no longer a duke, as he had lost that title in Sweden in 1888. For all we know from the decrees of the Grand Duke in 1892 and Grand Duchess in 1951, Oscar was recognized as Prince Bernadotte in the nobility of Luxembourg and was to have a ducal coronet on his arms there. The Swedish coronet at the top of this discussion, of a very special design for Oscar, and never seen anywhere else for anyone else, matches that on his arms in Riddarholm Church, but as a Swedish, not a Luxembourgish, coronet on those Swedish arms it only represents his lower title of Count of Wisborg That lower title was regognized in Sweden by king and government, but never has been included officially in Swedish nobility. Oscar was officially a nobleman only in Luxembourg.
2. Carl Bernadotte (nephew of Oscar): we do know specifically that he used a continental ducal and princely coronet as linked to here ("this" above). I have seen his stationery. That then is the only type of a coronet that would be legitimate to use over his arms, as required by Grand Duchess Charlotte - "actually" or "currently" in use by a person titled "Prince Bernadotte" in 1951.

I now await that an SVG version of these fully legitimate arms will be uploaded soon so that all relevant Wikipedia articles can be updated accordingly. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, you could use this to update your own SVG, but I'm still not convinced that this is the right version. De728631 (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry - don't know how to do SVG's. I think I have the wrong image programs for that kind of work.

I think your doubt may be because of a misunderstanding of a crucial difference bewteen Prince Bernadotte, which was a title of nobility in Pontecorvo (1809) Belgium (1937) and Luxembourg (1892 & 1951) only, and Prince of Sweden (royalty there). No Prince Bernadotte has ever still been a royal prince. These we're discussing each lost those royal Swedish titles long before they were elevated to the nobility of Luxembourg (4 of them) and Belgium (1 one them).

I see no other way to adhere strictly to Grand Duchess Charlotte's decree than to use the only coronet which we are absolutely sure was used in 1951 by a "Prince Bernadotte". Do you? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I very much disagree with this description of the titles. When Oscar Bernadotte married in 1888 he was allowed by his father the king to remain in the royal house and keep the title prince. His title has never been considered "noble". He was made Count of Wisborg in Luxembourg in 1892. Carl Bernadotte was created prince in Belgium, where the title is long established in the nobility, and was recognised as such in the Swedish unintroduced nobility. When three former Swedish princes were created Counts of Wisborg in 1951 they were adressed as princes in the document quoted here, but I mean that this probably is an oversight since it based in its entirety on the one for Oscar Bernadotte (who was a prince). They never claimed to have a princely title from Luxembourg and no official source ever listed them as having one.

As I have stated above, this coat of arms is speculation. It does not appear in heraldic literature or in real life. /--Elzo 90 (talk) 17:02, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

A coat of arms that is specifically described in detail and in writing by the authorized person granting it - specifically for "Princes and Princesses Bernadotte" - can hardly be called a speculation. It was granted just like this. It's all very clear in the text of the decree. Whether or not anyone ever used it is something we do not know and is irrelevant to the fact that it was granted just like this. The only part of it that has been used, that we know of, is the coronet, and that by Prince Carl Bernadotte. "that this probably is an oversight" is (1) an insult to the (famous) professionalism of Charlotte of Luxembourg and (2) not a knowledgeable assumption when it comes to documents of that kind. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

PS The point I was trying to make to dear helpful De728631 is that there is an important difference, on this subject, between royal princes of Sweden and (lower ranked) princes of BeNeLux nobilty. Whether there have been 1,2 or 6 of the latter type of prince (nobility, not royalty) in the House of Bernadotte does not change the fact that there is that essential difference when it comes to arms. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I am investigating this further and have added images here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:57, 21 May 2016 (UTC)